every time i see a “leftist” talk about not voting for biden, and thus supporting trump…
Agreed in the general election.
Strong disagree for primaries.
Primaries are for voting with your heart, the general is for voting strategically
Primaries are for pretending we’re a functioning democracy. The general is for acceptance.
My local district flipped blue for the first time in decades, local elections and primaries are very important
I’m sorry, it’s probably considered some sort of a smug European truism by now, but I have to say it. There is no left in the US two-party system. It’s right or center-right, that’s the choices you have, a giant douche or a turd sandwich.
used to be… now it’s fascism vs. center-right
More like right wing fascism vs neoliberal fascism.
Is it really center-right? I think it is more far right and facist extreme right. Atleast when observed from scandinavia
yeah pretty much
Fair enough
There is but you have to think of each party as having sub-parties within them. There aren’t external coalitions between parties but internal coalitions within the parties.
So a guy like Bernie Sanders is left, though not technically a Democrat, he caucuses with the Democrats effectively creating a coalition. There are many members within the Democratic Party that are also left wing, and others that are center, and others that could be considered right wing.
The Republicans are similar, but have an internal coalition with the far right MAGA faction. Which causes them a lot of problems.
The primary system is effectively a run off system which is used to determine a final two candidates to vote for in the final election. This system is old and has some bizarre traditions and has vulnerabilities to there being a third party spoiling everything.
Obviously it’s a crusty system that developed without planning, but the the Presidential election it’s not that dissimilar to France’s run-off system, just takes more time. And the legislatures having coalitions between people with different politics happens everywhere, it’s just happening within the parties and requires people to vote in primaries to get more representatives that have similar views to their own to make up a greater percentage of the coalition (which also happens everywhere).
In fact having coalitions within a party gives people more information when voting. If I’m voting for one of a dozen parties I don’t have a say over how a coalition is formed after an election. Someone declaring which coalition they intend to be a part of before the electorate votes gives the electorate both a say as to which individual they want (via primaries) and which coalition they want (in the general election).
That’s why OP wrote “leftist” instead of leftist.
If Biden wanted my vote he could simply stop supporting genocide. Really quite a low bar for him to clear.
There’s “holding your nose” and there’s voting for someone actively aiding a genocide.
there’s “administration aiding a genocide, but also doing so because they’re being lied to by israel, who also has a massive propaganda campaign to manipulate americans into supporting them…”
versus
Project 2025 and their plans of a fascist dictatorship right here, complete with a genocide of trans people and hispanics… and muslims… AND a continuation of supporting israel…
oh and aiding russians commiting genocide in ukraine.
voting trump in won’t save palestine, and it’ll make it soo so much worse
no one is proposing voting for trump here
Not voting is letting trump have an easier time at victory
I’d prefer he had the hardest time imaginable
i mean to vote for someone who won’t support the genocide, but i wouldn’t fault anyone for looking at all the candidates and deciding none of them deserve to have the office.
Removed by mod
Every single person who has a nonzero chance of being president next year supports Israel, so you should vote based on what the best possible outcome is.
i only vote for someone i want to have the office. you don’t get to tell my what i value or how i should express my values. you certainly don’t get to tell me how to vote.
I was young once too
this is ad hominem. what i’m saying is true or false regardless of how old i am. also, you don’t know how old i am. and on the internet, no one knows you’re a dog: you could be 12 years old for all i know.
this statement is pure sophistry. it’s disgusting rhetoric, and you should be ashamed.
Eventually you’ll figure out that the party that got 1% of the vote last time isn’t suddenly gonna sweep it with 51% this time.
no one proposed that
deleted by creator
Nobody running for president, ever, has deserved the office. I sincerely believe, as Douglas Adams so eloquently put, that “those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.”
I can’t think of any point in recent history where the choice is of who is deserving for office. The choice is, and has always been, who is the least undeserving of office (or the spoiler candidate). This year, I think it’s pretty obvious who is least undeserving of office.
The choice of who is deserving for office is reserved for everyone else further down the ballot.
Nobody running for president, ever, has deserved the office
Eugene debs
The choice of who is deserving for office is reserved for everyone else further down the ballot.
maybe for you. I don’t vote for someone unless I want them to win.
Not voting is letting trump have an easier time at victory
The core of the GOP’s strategy for holding on to power is the disenfranchisement of voters who are opposed to them. Not voting (or voting third party) is self-disenfranchisement and doing the GOP’s work for them.
Do you really believe not voting for Biden deceases the likelihood of genocide in Gaza? Because the alternative seems so much worse in every way, both for Gaza and so many other massively important issues
I’m not voting for someone who’s pro genocide, sorry.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
I’m not asking you to. I asked if you truly think things will be better when you don’t?
And instead, a genocide will still be on, and also more women will go to prison for seeking medical care, and also my LGBT friends will have their rights eroded even more, and also the new president will annoint more christofascist Godkings to the Supreme Court ensuring that any attempt to vote for an actual leftist in the future is impossible, and it’ll be fine, because at least you didn’t vote for the guy that wouldn’t have done all that extra awful shit
A vote is not an endorsement, stop treating it like it is.
Wow that all sounds awful. Biden should really try to win in order to prevent that.
I suggest he make himself more appealing by being anti-genocide.
Yeah, he should, and if he doesn’t, you still have to vote for him anyway, because the alternative is necessarily worse.
It absolutely sucks that Democrats are able to make zero effort and get votes based solely on the fact that they aren’t Republicans, but that’s the way it is. Vote in primaries, fight to make Republicans adopt better policies so that Democrats have to react, and vote blue in November, because the alternative is half the people in the community we’re arguing in going to fucking jail for being trans.
you still have to vote for him anyway
fuck you, i won’t do what you tell me
Nah. He knows what he needs to do to get my vote.
A vote is not an endorsement, stop treating it like it is.
it is an endorsement.
Removed by mod
cool bud, then you’ll get someone who’s pro genocide anyway. what a difference you made.
At least their conscience will be clean when our trans brothers and sisters are rounded up for extermination.
Biden isn’t pro genocide, at least there is no evidence to say that. The Biden administration has been against the ground invasion from the start.
Biden has made some missteps in my opinion, but America pulling support for Israel was never a real option. Israel does require aid, but Netanyaho doesn’t care if that aid comes from the US, or from his buddy Putin. Israel realigning with Russia would put Palestine in an even worse position because it would threaten their support from Iran.
Then, of course, there is the risk of a regional war breaking out of Iran takes the strained relationship between the US and Israel as an opportunity. That could easily pull other countries in and become WW3.
Foreign policy is about more than just virtue signaling. It’s outcomes that matter, and what a lot of people are calling for will not get them the outcomes they are looking for.
Not that I’m shaming anyone for pressuring Biden. The positive movement on aid shipments was very likely helped along by the protest votes in Michigan.
You are on a different and better level. You are a Chad consequentialist. Managing probabilities, shooting for the best outcomes, minimizing losses. Setting up the group of ideologically aligned leaders for future success. Fighting off fascism for four more years against all odds.
They are a weak feelings voter. Hopes Biden senpai will notice them and throwing a temper tantrum when he doesn’t. Talks about genocide, but doesn’t actually care if Trump will handle the genocide any differently than Biden. Wants everyone else to suffer because they are suffering. Hoping if Trump gets elected that someone else will do the hard work and fighting to fix everything. Is burned out on politics, but instead of not voting quietly, makes big posts about how not voting is actually a good and very smart idea because they can’t handle the fact that they need to rest.
And I’m sure letting trump have an easier time getting elected will make things so much better.
I would recommend talking to your local representatives about the current situation and how important it is to you and expressing how you may support other people running against them if they don’t support a ceasefire.
Local elections are really important.
And letting the greater evil in at the local level!!!1?!! Just admit you love Putin smdh smhmh
Our voting system sucks
I live in a red state so it doesn’t make any difference who I vote for. I’m not voting for Biden because I don’t want to support the Democrats and my vote doesn’t matter anyway. If I lived in a state where it mattered then I would probably vote for Biden because he’s not Trump.
that’s totally fair…
depending on how red it is, some states do flip, especially with redistricting…
ive voted third party in a super blue state before… but against trump, i even swallowed my vomit and voted for hillaryi have a trans child, and i don’t want them put into a concentration camp for sneezing in a school zone or whatever they’re cooking up in Project 2025…
Accelerationism is literally foreign propaganda, and has its roots in a few European leftists that had their views hijacked as a way of pushing radicalisation to status quo liberals.
It’s literally nonsense, and the equivalent of Christian Zionism / eschatology in that it’s a set of incredibly harmful, baseless beliefs that advocate for mass misery in the name of vague hope of an accelerated magical delivery of human kind to a new era of happiness and joy.
The US is well past the point where radicalization is an unreasonable response. It’s radicalization paired with stupidity that’s a problem, and that’s what we have with the accelerationists and MAGA.
I used to know a poli-sci researcher who was trying to take a big-data look at the success and failure of revolutions, taking in variables like “how many demonstrators rallied against the government?” “How many dissidents were disappeared by internal security forces?” and even things like “how many bullet holes are there on the buildings around the main protest venue in the capital?”
I asked him once if he’d discovered the secret to a successful revolution, and he just grimaced at me.
Even the American and French revolutions weren’t successful
American here, asking genuinely: how was the American revolution unsuccessful? My understanding is that the goal was to make the British go away, and that they did accomplish that in the end. What am I missing?
The goal wasn’t to make the British go away, the goal was to have representation and more than half of the people in the colonies weren’t even for the revolution. This is why they dressed up as natives for the Boston tea party so they could blame that shit on the natives.
The support of independence wasn’t much till Paul Revere demonized the Boston massacre into being much more villainous than it was.
The colonies kinda got what they want in revolution with the articles of confederation but with the rise of the federalists the US was created as a V2 of the British empire.
It’s unintended consequences all the way down, isn’t it
I love how people take the Soviet revolution as some sort of example of success, when what actually happened was that the original government collapsed because it was getting the shit kicked out of it by Germany, then a new government took over and got the shit kicked out it of by Germany before also collapsing, then the Bolsheviks strolled into literally empty government buildings and took over - against the judgement of most of the Bolsheviks who still thought the time wasn’t right to take over. Hardly a replicable or generalizable sequence of events.
If you ask me, the point isn’t to not vote for Biden, but rather to show him that’s vote for him isn’t automatic just because the opponent is Trump. Maybe if Biden listened when a lot of people said he was too old and lot people said don’t give Israel weapons used to kill women and children he wouldn’t be in this predicament. It’s funny how the leftists in do the same thing they always do that only works for millionaires work and then get mad at the working class when they don’t vote for them.
At what point would you not vote for Biden in order to stop Trump?
Not sure the tipping point, but being named Bernie would do it for me
Did voting for Biden stop Trump this last election? How many times are we supposed to vote Democrat against our own interests and better judgment until Trump is successfully stopped? What about when Trump stops being the face of fascism, an ideology and not a man, and the fascists prop up another candidate? Will it always be “neoliberalism or fascism” every election from here until fascism wins anyway because neoliberalism doesn’t work for the majority of people either?
This “they’ll win anyway” is some miserly nihilistic take - we’ve won against the Nazis before we’ll win again.
“how many times are as supposed to vote to prevent the fascists from gaining power?”
Until you can no longer physically vote.
You are part of a society that still allows you to politically organise around your beliefs, so get involved in your local politics and help bring your vision of a better future to more people - change doesn’t happen by itself.
Join a union. Get out there and make it happen.
Please do not project onto me when addressing my questions/comments. Just because I get frustrated with “vote blue no matter who” rhetoric online doesn’t mean I cease existing offline; I do have a life irl where I have been occasionally known to engage in my community and political projects.
“how many times are as supposed to vote to prevent the fascists from gaining power?”
despite the quotation marks, that is not a question I asked. Please do not put words in my mouth
This “they’ll win anyway” is some miserly nihilistic take - we’ve won against the Nazis before we’ll win again.
I am not a nihilist, and, based on context, I don’t think you meant that word anyway. Perhaps “defeatist”?
Paraphrasing me as saying “they’ll win anyway” in regards to fascists (nazis or otherwise) strips what I said of important context: my point was that if the rhetoric stagnates in the choice of “neoliberalism or fascism” the fascists will eventually get a win for two reasons:
-
the status quo, neoliberalism, isn’t working out for the majority of people, and historically whenever that happens, societies undergo major upheaval. If the public only ever knew two options prior to that revolution, they—as a mob, not a collection of rational individuals—will take the second
-
It frames the fight in such a way where the fascists “only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always.”
I didn’t project beyond what conclusions your comment lead me to.
Please do not put words in my mouth
See, if I were to quote you directly I would have done it like this.
Instead I used quotes without the indent, to paraphrase you in a way that I thought both accurately condensed and focused what you wrote in a way that highlighted what it came across to me as a ridiculous question.
Given the threaded discussion structure where anyone can go back and see exactly what a person has written, the idea that I am somehow able to misrepresent you is a rather odd take.
Perhaps “defeatist”?
No.
Sounded more like existential nihilism to me.
Paraphrasing me as saying “they’ll win anyway” in regards to fascists (nazis or otherwise) strips what I said of important context.
You literally wrote
until fascism wins anyway
But I did strip the context of neoliberalism because I answered it a sentence later by urging you to get involved to make the world you want.
There’s nothing “lucky” about voting, anymore there’s lucky in cleaning. You either clean or you’ll live in filth. You either defend your rights or you have them eroded and taken away.
The Republicans were not always fascists and the Democrats were not always so neoliberal which means things can change if enough people get involved to change them.
Unions, local elections, political activism etc all matter.
You don’t expect perfection, you get involved and you vote in the public transport analogy.
-
Yes. Exactly that. Our federal elections have been corrupt since the 1800s. The Republican effort to curtail the Democratic party and erect an autocratic state started in the 1960s (though there were earlier efforts in the 1920s and 1930s).
I get that it sucks that the US is not at all what we were promised it would be, but letting the Republican party destroy the Democratic party is only going to make things way, way worse for the majority of Americans. And civil war and its aftermath is going to take decades (if not over a century) to resolve.
The French Revolution started in 1789. The Third Republic was founded in 1870, between which the guillotines had to be rolled out several times, and Napoleon had to go to war with the rest of Europe. When the two-state system falls in the US, you can expect chaos and bloodshed for the rest of your life, including kids prostituting themselves on the streets for food (what was seen in post-Soviet eastern bloc states after the USSR fell in the early 1990s). It’s going to be grisly for anyone who doesn’t flee abroad, and for some who do.
As per Bertrand Russell, war doesn’t decide who is right, only who is left. And this includes civil war.
Very bleak and demotivating, thank you
Did voting for Biden stop Trump this last election?
Um, yes? It didn’t stop Trump from breathing, but it stopped him from being president this term. Even if it somehow eliminated Trump, there is always the next Trump. There is no point where we can stop fighting to preserve past victories, even as we fight for new ones.
How many times are we supposed to vote Democrat against our own interests
None. Voting Democrat is always in your interests. (At least until something major changes) Voting corrupt Democrats out in primaries is even moreso. It would be nice if we lived in a system that can support more than two parties, but we don’t.
Will it always be “neoliberalism or fascism” every election
That’s why we fight to take over the Democratic party. Every obstacle to defeating Democrats in primaries has a corresponding obstacle to winning a general with a third party candidate. Winning as a third party is both more difficult, and more risky.
You want a shortcut, but there isn’t one.
I don’t have much to respond to because I appreciate what you’ve said and even agree for the most part, however:
Voting Democrat is always in your interests.
The Democratic party is not some force of good, and their administrations and policies still harm the working class and other marginalized groups. They just manage to do less harm and placate us slightly more than their primary opponents.
Voting democrat is more in my interest than voting Republican, but not as much as having an ancom in office. It is not in my interest in general, as I will still be shooting myself in the foot because it’s better than having someone else shove electrodes into my brain.
You may say that it’s the effect of “corrupt dems,” but that’s a myopic understanding of the party and its motives. It is an ideologically driven party, it’s just that that ideology is an uncomfortable truth: liberal capitalism. In service of that, it allows the input of marginalized groups, but will never allow us to gain full autonomy and control over our own lives as that would not serve capital.
I refuse to buy this narrative that any progress be made has to be made under the banner of a particular party/organization/group.
The Democrats chose Biden in 2019, 2020. The thing is, the Democratic party is, itself, right wing. Neoliberalism is pretty far right, it’s just not crazypants far right than the Republican party.
If you’re EU centrist, you don’t have a voice in Washington. Heck, the Democratic party is looking for ways to oust Occasio-Cortez and Sanders, no matter how popular their positions might be.
Don’t vote for Biden, rather vote against the GOP. Any vote for a Republican is a vote to end democracy and let them rule as autocrats. Any vote against the Republican party (specifically your one vote for the next popular guy – that is, the Democrat) is a vote to hold onto the US’ meager democratic features.
If you’re wanting to make a statement, your vote for officials is not where to make it, no matter how fervent your feelings about it. Elections are where you get to choose between King Log and King Heron. (And Heron will eat all the frogs.) Make your grievances known through other activism.
Engage in mutual aid now, so that you don’t have to engage in sabotage and resistance against an overwhelming foe later.
It’s funny how the leftists in do the same thing they always do that only works for millionaires work and then get mad at the working class when they don’t vote for them.
Will you please phrase this another way? For some reason I am unable to parse it.
Good luck getting the raccoon smell out of the gatehouse
I’ve literally had multiple relatives tell me to my face how they’re giddy with excitement for the day they get the order to march through the streets and kill people like me, a queer lefty.
I’d prefer if we didn’t let that happen here.
You know, blood is thicker than water, that means that you can amputate blood.
There’s many reasons I call them relatives and not family
You can choose your family (and I have), can’t choose your relatives though
But you don’t have to associate with your relatives unless you want to
That’s a terrible pun.
How about, blood may be thicker than water, but that doesn’t mean you can’t dam it.
Hey, for what it’s worth I have had some similar experiences with relatives bemoaning my family and friends’ rights to exist as who they are and I agree with you about left-accelerationism.
My earlier comment was low hanging fruit because it’s one of John Beard’s best lines and the last time the non-government crowd took over a place the wildlife took over shortly afterwards.
Where is that from?
Arrested development, they talk about couples therapy, the guy is a therapist in the show
Analrapist *
He is not a sexual predator, despite his incapacity to deny it.
Theralist needs anustart
deleted by creator
Socialism 2024. End the MIC, and end capitalism before it ends us
![Accelerationist [RULE]](https://files.catbox.moe/052f42.jpeg){kind=link}